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What do you mean 'open setting'?
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Werecorpse

Deuce


Joined: 28 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 12:53 am    Post subject: What do you mean 'open setting'? Reply with quote

I see about the place that Hellfrost is referred to as an open setting. What does this mean? How is it distinguished from a closed setting? What are some examples of other open or closed settings ?

What is Greyhawk? Glorantha? 50 Fathoms?
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TAG Wiggy

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2012 1:13 am    Post subject: Re: What do you mean 'open setting'? Reply with quote

Werecorpse wrote:
I see about the place that Hellfrost is referred to as an open setting. What does this mean? How is it distinguished from a closed setting? What are some examples of other open or closed settings ?

What is Greyhawk? Glorantha? 50 Fathoms?


Basically, you can do with it what you want without fear of us advancing the timeline with accompanying big changes (a la The Greyhawk Wars) or giving you a firm solution to the big plots (return of the Liche-Priest, the Siphoning, the Hellfrost, etc.) that you might not agree with. We've provided a snapshot in time, but the future of your campaign is up to you, not our whims.
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DRsmitty

Deuce


Joined: 30 Jan 2011
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey did Wiggy just say there is going to be no ultimate answer to all these wonderful meta-plots he has given us? Surprised

I feel like Sam seeing the elves leaving Middle Earth, "I don't know why - it makes me sad." Crying or Very sad
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Enno

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DRsmitty wrote:
Hey did Wiggy just say there is going to be no ultimate answer to all these wonderful meta-plots he has given us? Surprised

I feel like Sam seeing the elves leaving Middle Earth, "I don't know why - it makes me sad." Crying or Very sad


Yes, he did ... for the last 3+ years.
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Werecorpse

Deuce


Joined: 28 Nov 2012
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Warning- rambling barely on topic post below)

Its funny I know that the old advancing timeline issue created a heap of angst especially in the forgotten realms but that type of thing never bothered me. (disclosure - never really played in forgotten realms) I would just set the campaign during the time that suited me.

In fact I have always enjoyed playing in a world with events happening in it. I ran a 15+ year greyhawk campaign starting the campaign from the historical battle of Emridy Meadows finishing just prior to the greyhawk wars (due to high level d&d burnout and unrelated matters).

I also ran a Runequest campaign where I backdated the start to allow the characters to interact with various classic historical events (Lunar conquest of Prax etc). I note runequest 4 (or 5?) is a bunch of adventures and detail in glorantha several hundred years before all the runequest 1-3 adventures.

My holy grail will be to eventually run the Great Pendragon campaign

(apologies for cross game content- suffice to say I have enjoyed running games where the future was writ and my Pc's interacted with it - and sometimes changed it).

the problem with published worlds as opposed to homebrew is always that there is a risk that the publisher would create something major that changed your campaign and all the effort you put in. But IMO as long as the publisher is supporting the world that exists whether or not the publisher eventually allows the world to change.

By having the statement that the Liche-priest will remain imprisoned, the siphoning will remain unsolved and the hellfrost will remain it means that people who care about exact consistency cant have a campaign which results in the freeing of the Liche-priest and him marching to war, or the removing of the siphoning etc ie with respect to these events the setting is closed.

Dont get me wrong a person can just run a campaign resulting in the freeing of the Liche-priest and his eventual destruction- but then when the next Hellfrost adventure comes out it may be irreconcilable. And if Wiggy isnt going to produce any more scenarios it doesnt really mean its open, just unsupported.

If he does write a series of scenarios solving the problem of the hellfrost and you dont like it you can just set your campaign prior to that event- i mean you have got several hundred years of Hellfrost and most campaigns last less than 20 game years.

Even playing out say the frost giant adventures can result in some significant changes to parts of the world.

I would love to play/read/run a campaign restoring the sun gods power, discovering the secret of the siphoning (even if it wasn't solved world wide) etc. equally i would be happy to play in the world of hellfrost before the blizzard war etc

Anyhow I havent even started playing in Hellfrost so i have plenty of adventuring to go before i develop PC's capable of interacting with the Liche-priest etc
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TAG Wiggy

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 11:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Werecorpse wrote:
Dont get me wrong a person can just run a campaign resulting in the freeing of the Liche-priest and his eventual destruction- but then when the next Hellfrost adventure comes out it may be irreconcilable. And if Wiggy isnt going to produce any more scenarios it doesnt really mean its open, just unsupported.


The north is just one part of a greater world, and it's been very well supported over the past four years. There'll be plenty more adventures, but these will be in the desert realms. Unlike Al-Qadim, for instance, LOF isn't a remote part of the world with no ties back to the core setting -- what happened in the north has had a direct effect there.
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Enno

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 12:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Werecorpse wrote:
Anyhow I havent even started playing in Hellfrost so i have plenty of adventuring to go before i develop PC's capable of interacting with the Liche-priest etc


No reason to apologize.

Point of being an open setting is, that you can do virtually anything with YOUR version of Hellfrost. There is no official way how the big and small secrets of Hellfrost (and all its subsettings) will work out, because they are subject to YOUR interpretation. Of course there is the way Wiggy intended them to be, but how you include them in your campaign, how you interpret them, ignore them, combine them, change the main protagonists etc are all open for your own devising.

None of the official adventures are really touching the BIG secrets, they only give you another facet in the big story - at least how you play it. Even the Frost Giants Saga follows the dictum, that it is YOUR game. Even if you never played the Saga or played it completely different (as most of us have - at least in part), it doesn't have the impact. There may be a few cameos or sidenotes in later adventures, but these are just jokes for those who played them.

So, be at ease, as there is no wrong or right way to play Hellfrost - only your way. Take those secrets you like to be solved and develop your campaign around it as you see fit. Wink
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TAG Wiggy

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It always amuses me (in a good way) when Hellfrost comes up in the same reference (even obliquely) to certain settings. Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Glorantha -- all 30+ years in the making, with the input of dozens of authors (with the latter using at least three different rulesets). Hellfrost -- 4.5 years old, largely one author. Makes me a proud father. Smile
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Banghaisgidheach

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 1:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I confess that I would gladly buy a book called "TAG Wiggy's view of Hellfrost's secrets" (or something like that) Embarassed
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wmarshal

Deuce


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you meet Wiggy at a con you can sometimes get a little secret out of him. However, it seems that for the big questions dealing with the Siphoning, the Hellfrost, the Liche-Priest, etc. there truly are no answers, and I'm fine with that. If Wiggy explains in detail the causes for some of these things, or offers solutions it could close off some potential for the GM to be imaginative. The Hellfrost has been going on for hundreds of years, and I don't see a reason why it has to be solved within the years/decades a campaign would take place. Also, solving the Hellfrost would fundamentally change the setting to the point it would be considered a new setting making some of the old support material useless.

In my campaign I've related the Siphoning to the Puppet Masters, the creation of the Orcmark and the shenanigans going on with the Mage King. I might not have come up with that if Wiggy had spelled everything out.
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Werecorpse

Deuce


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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wiggy: to the extent that my comment was perceived as disrespectful of the amount of material produced for Rassilon that wasn't my intention. It is very impressive. Is it right that there is no current intention to publish further adventures set in Rassilon?

I have always treated settings as able to be changed & developed to suit my game. I now understand the use of the term "open setting" here means there will not be an advance of the official world timeline or revelation of the major secrets with the intention that doing so is intended to empower the individual groups to develop their own campaigns - so be it.
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Enno

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAG Wiggy wrote:
It always amuses me (in a good way) when Hellfrost comes up in the same reference (even obliquely) to certain settings. Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Glorantha -- all 30+ years in the making, with the input of dozens of authors (with the latter using at least three different rulesets). Hellfrost -- 4.5 years old, largely one author. Makes me a proud father. Smile


I always told you, that you follow a proud and old tradition, mate. Razz


Banghaisgidheach wrote:
I confess that I would gladly buy a book called "TAG Wiggy's view of Hellfrost's secrets" (or something like that) Embarassed


Where would be the fun in that?

Wiggy often shares some of his visions about the setting, but he doesn't want to impose a canon police. Like he always says: It's YOUR game! Wink
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Banghaisgidheach

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Where would be the fun in that?

Wiggy often shares some of his visions about the setting, but he doesn't want to impose a canon police. Like he always says: It's YOUR game!

Buying a book doesn't mean I would use it for a game. Wink
I'm a compulsive reader of scenariis and campaigns (obviously, only when I know I won't play them) but I can't say I often use them as they are.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Werecorpse wrote:
Wiggy: to the extent that my comment was perceived as disrespectful of the amount of material produced for Rassilon that wasn't my intention. It is very impressive. Is it right that there is no current intention to publish further adventures set in Rassilon?


'Twasn't perceived as disrespectful at all.

There are no current plans for more Hellfrost Rassilon material, but we're not drawing a line under it by any means. A long vacation for me in the desert will be a nice change, and while I'm basking in the sun other parts of the mind shall be dreaming up more frosty goodness.
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Often the seeming throwaway sentence contains a lot of information, especially in Hellfrost. Twisted Evil

The disappearance on Angtharinax is a fairly major campaign hook GM's can work into their games. My view of where he is, and it is only my view, is in print for all who have eyes to see. Not seeing it doesn't make your ideas wrong in any way, and my not spelling it out in plain English doesn't make me a bad person or a tease. I really enjoy reading how folk how making Hellfrost their game, rather than playing in my campaign. For instance, someone has tied the creation of the Mistlands to Angtharinax, which is cool. is his idea right? Of course it is -- for his campaign.
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