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Theology Question
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Hellfire6A

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 1:44 am    Post subject: Theology Question Reply with quote

I want to approach this question while maintaining sensitivity to the feelings and beliefs of others. However, I have been more that a bit astounded by the direction that the latest Necropolis products have gone.

First, I want to say thank you for leaving major theological issues out of the main setting book. Having said that I have found the tone of your other books disturbing. I laughed when I read that the 3RC didn't have a Devil (that's kind of like listening to a child say something ridiculous like "Margaret Thatcher was the Prime Minister that defeated Hitler."), with half the world population believing in some form of Devil that was just laughable. But, when I read your description of the Soul Cloak and the Death Hunter I became physically ill. I don't know if you understand why I have such a problem with this particular section so I'll try to explain.

By saying that people who die in God's good graces can be turned into Rephaim creatures you are saying that God isn't powerful enough to protect his children or honor his promises. I don't know what your intent was when you chose to use these descriptions, but they are offensive in the extreme.

I didn't even buy Broken Seal because the backcover description was enough to put me off. I want to teach my kids good from evil, not teach them that the "ends justify the means" and that good sometimes has to work with evil.

I have spent alot of time really working to decrease the "gross factor" when playing this game with my kids, but I can't keep doing that and fight with my conscience over some very offensive and poorly thought out background information.

I don't understand where the Miracles come from that are used by the Faithful? If God isn't powerful enough to protect his children, then how is he powerful enough to provide the Miracles to defeat the Rephaim? You have spent a great deal of time expounding on where the power for the Rephaim comes from, but none on where the Miracles come from and it is really detrimental to the storyline and background. You are painting yourself into a corner, because theologically it seems that the Dark/Rephaim have the upper hand and it's going to be hard to explain how the knights can combat a power with such a decided advantage.

I realize the setting is "Mature" and I make allowances for that and shield my kids from the excessively horrific parts of the setting. However, I don't know if it's in my best interest to keep trying to shield myself from the picture you are painting of God.
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C.A.Pryde

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that it might be worthwhile for me to put in two cents here, since you are obviously reading the Update, for which I have an authorial credit, and since I probably come from a similar place in some ways.

First, a little background, by way of establishing credibility. I am a preacher's son (and a Baptist preacher's son, at that). I am a faithful practicing Christian.

I think that it is very, very important to keep in mind that the world of Necropolis is supposed to have no connection at all to Christianity. If you apply that theology at all, you're going to be unhappy (although you should read on for my caveat). Christian theology breaks down immediately and all over the place in this setting.

Having said that, I was partly attracted to the setting because of the spiritual element to the game. As a result, I made a conscious decision when I ran the game with my own group to alter elements of the game and align the theology with my own, essentially reconceptualizing the 3RC as the Catholic Church and the spiritual actors as God and Lucifer. Historically, after all, the Church dealt with some pretty serious issues of corruption, schism, and all sorts of unpleasantness (see: Inquisition), so I can reconceptualize the 3RC without changing the fact that it has some problems.

I do go out of my way to establish points of divine intervention, as when my players found a room full of children and nuns in an overrun church that had been protected from the Rephaim because the priest's sacrificial death had placed a spiritual ward on the room containing the innocents. I think that actively rewarding faith in this game means a lot for some of my players, inviting them to act more purely "heroic" than they do in our D&D games, which often end up being pretty mercenary and selfish (much to my irritation).

All that said, I know for a fact that Wiggy is not himself a particularly religious guy, so it would not make sense to expect him to write a particularly religious setting. And although it might be irritating to read some things, I am, for my own part, incredibly thankful that I have a setting to run that draws my friends--most of them not believers--into a world that, WITH SOME ALTERATION, offers an alternative to the "ends justify the means" tone of most of our games.

So I'm suggesting here that you have to make your own decisions about what the world contains and how it works rather than letting someone else set those parameters. Obviously, if that bridge gets too hard to cross, then you need to re-think it, and I respect that. But the world doesn't have to work in a way that you do not like; it is your choice.

As an addendum, I would like to suggest here that you should seriously consider supporting the style of play that I suggest and that I think you would prefer for your kids by adapting for your group the "Gamma Front" campaign setting at the end of the Update (full disclosure: I wrote that part). I specifically designed Gamma Front for the kind of adventures that I like, emphasizing the ways in which the Knights are heroic champions of all that is good in mankind. You will find some good examples of what the Church can look like in its good iterations, in the persons of Pastor Jimenez and Father Conrad, and opportunities for the Knights to build up the charitable functions of the local preceptory, free oppressed local workers in at least one town, and so forth. Gamma Front is all about being the best you can be, defending the weak while they are beset upon all sides by powerful agents of evil.
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Control

Deuce


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hellfire6A,

You are expressing the feelings of a lot of Christians towards a lot of role playing games. But instead of not playing the games you are choosing to play those you feel most comfortable with. I have a friend who quit playing D&D years ago because he could not reconcile his enjoyment of gaming with his friends with the feeling that D&D encouraged familiarity or a cavalier attitude concerning demons & devils. He still played super hero games though. I applaud you for modifying the setting to reduce the gross factor for your kids. And like C.A.Pryde I suggest editing other aspects of your campaign to emphasize the points you like as well. One of the great things about Savage Worlds and the Plot Point settings is how well they handle modification. Like with any other gaming product, use what you like and discard the rest. If Broken Seal didn't sound like it fit your style it makes perfect sense not to buy it. Faith and protecting the faithful are important to you so emphasize them in the setting.

Last but by no means least, its a game. If it does not entertain you, then don't play it. It took me years in a generally disappointing campaign to figure that out and clear a spot at the table for some one who enjoyed that GM's style more than I did.
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TAG Wiggy

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 11:42 am    Post subject: Re: Theology Question Reply with quote

(Quick note to previous readers: I've added a few more spoilers to this post to explain a little more about The Broken Seal and what the adventure sets out to do. They're in white to conceal them.)

Hi Hellfire,

I'll begin by stating my personal religious overview. I believe in God, but I'm not a Christian (not a member of any other organized faith). That said, I don't feel any religion is wrong--it's a personal choice.

C.A.Pryde did hit one very important note--the 3RC is not a Christian organization. The Catholic model was used for familiarity and because the setting is part based on the Crusades (not the political reasons which caused West to attack East, but the general concept of a holy war---Necropolis is mostly definitely not an anti-Islamic metaphor).

The others have answered your general concerns, but you asked direct questions of me, and you deserve a direct answer.

So, to your points...

1) Why no Devil? Because, in Necropolis, man is responsible for his own sin. A man is evil because he chooses to be evil, and because he is morally and spiritually weak. In the same vein, God does not make a man good---he shows him the path to righteousness, but he doesn't push him along it.

2) I understand how the Soul Cloak and Death Hunter can be offensive, and for that I unreservedly apologise. No deliberate intent to offend any faith is intended.

No soul is eternally lost to God, or to salvation. The Necropolis view mirrors that of Revelation 20:12-20:15---until the end of days, no man is judged. At that point, every soul, good or evil, will face God. Thus, those souls "lost" to the Rephaim, souls which made no conscious choice to become evil, can still receive eternal life. Yes, with more hindsight I should have made this very clear to the reader, but that can be fixed with a freebie download explaining the game's view on such matters.

3) Teaching your kids right from wrong is a very noble (not to mention correct) thing to do, and one I personally espouse. I don't have kids, but a look at our society today is a clear indication not enough folk are doing this.

The Knights don't have to be touched by evil in The Broken Seal. It's a moral choice they have to make. Yes, doing so is a short cut to victory, and there in lies the moral dilemma---is it ever right to work with evil to destroy evil? And [SPOILER ALERT]...

Quote:
The NPC Knight who is originally possessed by a fragment of the awakening demon sacrifices his life to ensure the greater evil is destroyed.

EDIT: It is also worth noting that the entire adventure is about difficult moral choices and personal sacrifice. The NPC Knight who is possessed was a devout soldier; the best of the best. He chose his path to host a demon because he had the faith and strength of will to hold a demon captive so it could be studied in order to find a weakness. It isn't supposed to be a direct Jesus reference, but the Knight willingly gave up his life for the benefit of mankind.


4) The nature of miracles has deliberately been left a gray area. Whether God grants them or whether they are a manifestation of personal faith affecting reality is player choice, not something forced on anyone. Neither is wrong in the game reality.

I hope that's of some use to you.
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derfinsterling

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just wanted to throw a warning out there, folks, since religion is always a touchy subject.

The discussion has been very civil so far, offering valuable insight in the theology of the game setting.

Let's keep it that way, s' all I'm saying. Otherwise I'll have to close the thread. Wink
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TAG Wiggy

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

derfinsterling wrote:
Just wanted to throw a warning out there, folks, since religion is always a touchy subject.

The discussion has been very civil so far, offering valuable insight in the theology of the game setting.

Let's keep it that way, s' all I'm saying. Otherwise I'll have to close the thread. Wink


Marcus is our moderator by the way, folks. He's independent of TAG (as in he's not a company employee) and we abide by his decisions as a neutral party.
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daran

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 3:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought about staying out of this because I have no real answers, but changed my mind after what I saw on the TV today. Opinions need to be aired and done so with all due respect to the moderation process.

Ok, firstly, Respect to Six for having the cojones to state his position and to stand up and be counted, however, I must respectfully disagree with the main thrust here, and refute the useage of 'offensive' and 'poorly researched'. In my opinion, NC23xx setting is not about Christianity - it is fictional, and nor is it so clear cut about good and evil. From my relatively separate position as an ethnic Jew I can from a theological point of view totally accept the concept of good and evil being part of the nature of man, both of which are manifested by mans actions and choices, and nothing to do with the influence of a Devil. Broken Seal admirably demonstrates this with the choices proferred to the Knights - do they take the quick but morally dubious ends justify the means path, or do they follow the path less trodden and acheive a slower but more powerful victory.

I do agree that the message that whatever an individual has done he/she can be made Rephaim is dark, and would seem to indicate that God's power is insufficient to save anyone, however, we're making assumptions about the NC23xx universe based on reality. If we are to follow that desire for good always triumphing over evil logically, we should assume that this happens in reality. It appears not to happen in the physical plane and I'm not prepared to speculate on any other plane - your beliefs in what happens then are yours, however, it is hard to deny that injustice and unfairness happens in the world giving the impression of evil defeating good.

Another assumption that is being made is that the Rephaim are the product of a Devil figure. There's nothing in the game texts to indicate this. If the core texts stated that the 3RC was a Christian Church and that the Rephaim were the servants of the Anti-Christ then I personally would not want to purchase the modules or play the system, however, it is a Science Fiction Horror RPG that does not claim a Christian or even a real-world analogue. For me, as the other players in the group will no doubt agree, the darkness and seemingly overwhelming odds just galvanises my play towards the good and if anything drives me towards a more Judeao-Christian viewpoint. We cannot deny that evil exists in the real world, but we can stand and fight if we so choose to. Six's Joshua quote is quite apposite.

Having muddied the waters a touch, I'll leave this with that this is a game. Use the genre or not, your call. In the end, use it as a combat system with a dark setting rather than an RPG or not, again your call.

I know what my personal preference is.
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Jordan Peacock

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Disclaimer: My opinions are my own as a GM and are not meant to represent those of anyone else at TAG. Edited for clarity and to trim down the length.)

I hear your concerns and I've shared some similar feelings regarding several games that involve real-world religion (or something resembling it).

I've run into a similar issue way back when I was running campaigns in certain other RPG settings (e.g., Mutant Chronicles) that featured futuristic vaguely-Judeo-Christian religions with "inquisitors" and the like. In those cases, the techno-religion happened in each case to feature trappings associated with Christianity, but when its theology was spelled out, wasn't really Christian at all. (E.g., deification of the "Cardinal," replacement of an omnipotent deity with an abstract "force" or "Light" of some sort.)

My playing group is fairly diverse. (It's a bad idea to talk politics or religion at the table - but they do anyway.) I sometimes offer disclaimers when religion comes into a game, just to make sure I don't offend anyone. Sometimes I've tweaked a setting or avoided a game entirely in order to avoid hard feelings.

I remember the unpleasantness when, once upon a time, I naively played a "paladin" type hero serving a transparently Christian fantasy-transplant faith. The GM, a fan of "dark fantasy," decided to make a plot point out of villainizing my character's faith and doing his utmost to wrench as much angst as possible out of my character's "Lawful-Goodness." I don't ever want to spring that sort of surprise on players; there may be exceptions, but I don't think the majority enjoy writing up an intended hero only to be find that they've been cast on the side of the villains.

Regards Necropolis, I think the theological details of any RPG are best taken with a grain of salt. It's hard to "get it all right" and still have a game.

For one thing, I don't think existing faiths would roll over and die so easily; if there are cults devoted to the Rephaim, surely there would be some stubborn few who cling to the "faiths of old." In my own campaign interpretation, I'd think that SOMEWHERE in the universe, they're probably still around in some way, even though the material does not reflect this.

For another thing, I find it hard to figure out how to model miraculous powers in a game-balance-friendly way. How does one justify that a modern-day prophet of an almighty God only has a limited number of spell points or spell slots per day, or has a random "faith" roll to make in which he has even chances of spectacular success or crippling failure? I would be loathe, as GM, to step in and play the part of God and dictate when a miracle "is supposed" to succeed or fail.

(Yeah, I know, I've heard the tacky cliche, "As GM, you are god," but there's a subtle difference between acting as the narrator and introducing God "on camera," so to speak, as an NPC. I don't want to go there. There's no way I can possibly do justice to the Eternal Creator of Everything with my bad acting! GMs may be "omnipotent," but as long as there are players and dice in the equation, they can never be "omniscient.")

Anyway, the whole mechanics of "holy powers" give rise to theological questions. I can see why it'd be tempting to just keep the trappings (space crusaders in shining armor!) but tweak the theology (not REALLY Christian....) in an attempt to avoid having to deal with some of the implications.

My point is just, basically, that there's probably no perfect way to come up with a framework for miraculous powers that's going to make sense on a theological level anyway.

I sympathize with your concerns. I cringe every time another game comes out when it's - oh surprise! - another evil inquisitorial church! For Necropolis, the appeal for me was just the idea of the space crusaders being the good guys and fighting zombies (the ultimate mindless guilt-free opponent, right up there with animated blobs, hive-mind aliens, and berserk robots). If my players were to agree to jump into a proper Necropolis campaign, I'd likely be applying some "edits" to the setting after consulting my players.

I suspect that little has been said about the source of the powers of followers of the Church because - well, if anything has been sensitive so far, pinning down the source of such powers might even be more controversial.

My personal suggestion would be to take the setting as a framework - a starting place - but due to the theological aspects of the setting, some assembly is required. (Or, rather, some editorial decisions - leaving out the bits and pieces that don't make sense for your campaign.)

I routinely have to tailor settings to my players, anyway, and for really fleshed out settings, I often prefer to think that not EVERYTHING in every sourcebook really exists in my particular campaign world.
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TAG Wiggy

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 8:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jordan Peacock wrote:

For one thing, I find it hard to believe that existing faiths would roll over and die so easily; if there are cults devoted to the Rephaim, surely there would be some stubborn few who cling to the "faiths of old." No mention is made of such a thing in the material, but I'd assume it to be the case somewhere (at least in my personal campaign interpretation).


Their fate was deliberately left blank. What happened to each and every 21st century faith isn't important to the core setting. As I've said before, I started down the route of having multiple faiths and the core focus was quickly lost.
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philth

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lest the other side not be heard by the creators of this wonderful setting: Please, please please do not curb your creative juices. I for one enjoy immensely the dark, evil, hopeless, corrupt and heretical aspects of the setting. It's a sci-fi HORROR game after all, and I'm sold on the horror aspect. I enjoy the moral questions, and like my players to come away from the table with an icky feeling. I enjoy the hopelessness and the point presented in the new update that the inability of the church and corporations to work together is allowing humanity's true enemies to grow in power.

So what I'm saying is some of us Necropolis fans (me) still enjoy the more hardcore aspects of the setting and hope you all keep it up.


my 2 cents.....
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TAG Wiggy

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

philth wrote:
my 2 cents.....


Thanks for commenting, Philth. All sides of the (many-sided) coin are welcome to share their views on the setting. All feedback is beneficial to us.

The moral side you like so much is intended to present players with deliberately difficult choices many RPGs can/do ignore. Kill an orc? No hestitation for many parties--it's a faceless monster worth XPs. Arrest someone who looks like your mom because she was seen talking to a heretic in a restaurant and hand her over to the Inquisition, who have already said they'll roast alive? Not so clear cut in my book.

There are no right or wrong choices in Necropolis, only ones the characters have to live with.
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Cripple X

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 9:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was deliberately avoiding responding to this thread because I don't want to offend anybody but since I feel so similar to Philith, I guess I want to post to show he's not the only one that feels that way. I love the direction Necropolis 2350 taking.

I love the fact that that even the most faithful can be reduced to slaves of the Rephaim. I love that even on the verge of its own annihilation humanity cannot get past its differences to stand united. I like the morally gray areas, and I like the feeling of impending irredeemable doom.

I think that if the players honestly engage in a dialogue with the setting, i.e. put some thought into roleplaying their characters that they end up confronting some tough issues, and the way they struggle and deal with those issues means a lot for the depth of the setting and also for their enjoyment of the gaming experience.

Unlike the original poster I'm not completely turned-off by things like the Soul cloak or the Death Hunter. I think that the sort of shock and horror that one gets when you read those descriptions and think of their ramifications for the Necropolis 2350 fictional universe ultimately heighten one's appreciation of the setting, by addition emotional resonance. The sense of tragedy that one feels when one compares the commonly portrayed beliefs of the Church and the Knights against those descriptions is powerful, and it's these emotions I feel, that contribute heavily to what makes Necropolis 2350 such a wonderful setting.

That's how I feel about it at least.
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TAG Wiggy

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cripple X wrote:
I was deliberately avoiding responding to this thread because I don't want to offend anybody but since I feel so similar to Philith, I guess I want to post to show he's not the only one that feels that way. I love the direction Necropolis 2350 taking.


I don't think stating you like the setting will offend anyone, amigo. Smile

So long as everyone is respectful of others replies and avoid real world religious and political debate (the no-win threads), folks are free to speak your mind. However, when Markus is offended or receives too many complaints, the thread gets locked. That's out of my control (since I'm an active participant in this thread).

Quote:
Unlike the original poster I'm not completely turned-off by things like the Soul cloak or the Death Hunter. I think that the sort of shock and horror that one gets when you read those descriptions and think of their ramifications for the Necropolis 2350 fictional universe ultimately heighten one's appreciation of the setting, by addition emotional resonance.


In all fairness, Hellfire's comments are valid. I could have been more tactful, but as a non-Christian, it honestly didn't cross my mind that I'd be causing offense.
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Cripple X

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAG Wiggy wrote:

In all fairness, Hellfire's comments are valid. I could have been more tactful, but as a non-Christian, it honestly didn't cross my mind that I'd be causing offense.


Of course they are! In no way did I mean to insinuate that he doesn't have a right to feel the way he feels. I certainly understand why Hellfire feels the way he does, I mean I was horrified by the descriptions as well. The only place Hellfire and I differ, it seems, is in how we view the setting in light of that horror. That's all I was trying to say. I wasn't trying to disparage his feelings or opinions in the slightest.
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Hellfire6A

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 03, 2009 10:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

C.A.Pryde wrote:
Having said that, I was partly attracted to the setting because of the spiritual element to the game. As a result, I made a conscious decision when I ran the game with my own group to alter elements of the game and align the theology with my own, essentially reconceptualizing the 3RC as the Catholic Church and the spiritual actors as God and Lucifer.


Thank you. That is pretty much what I have done from the start. I love the setting because it does set up a conflict of good v evil that can be really black and white. It definitely has some redeeming qualities in that regard.

As to the setting not being "Christian"...I think it's hard to make that separation when the majority of the terminology and yes even the theology is so predominantly Christian. It is very jarring when you come across something that is very obviously counter to the Bible and Christian thought.

Other than that I really like the update and would recommend it to anyone that I felt could separate it from Christian philosophy.
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