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Miscellaneous Vehicle Questions

 
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Bob_RedBlok

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Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Posts: 31
Location: Columbus (Blacklick), OH, USA

PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 3:27 am    Post subject: Miscellaneous Vehicle Questions Reply with quote

To make sure I am reading the description correctly, toughness of a tank or similar vehicle reads as follows: front/side/rear, correct?

If grav tanks can lift 6 yards, can they conceal infantry beneath them without harming them?

Are grav tanks affected any differently by effects of the out-of-control table?

This question is not necessarily vehicle specific, but it came up when using a vehicle's autocannon. An extra fires an autocannon at a zombie in a bunker. Since the weapon produces a template effect, the extra can aim at the bunker itself, intending to including the zombie beneath the weapon's template. Mechanically, the extra does not suffer the -6 cover penalty to his shooting roll since he can target the bunker to include the zombie in the template's effect rather than targetting the zombie directly, correct? When the extra hits, the cover provided by the bunker instead applies to the zombie's toughness, since the weapon is an area attack, so the unarmored zombie has a toughness of 13, opposed to its usual toughness of 7. Does the autocannon's AP value affect the zombie's enhanced toughness granted by the cover? I personally think the cover adds directly to the zombie's toughness and cannot be reduced by AP.
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derfinsterling

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Joined: 19 Jun 2008
Posts: 346

PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 9:07 am    Post subject: Re: Miscellaneous Vehicle Questions Reply with quote

Bob_RedBlok wrote:
To make sure I am reading the description correctly, toughness of a tank or similar vehicle reads as follows: front/side/rear, correct?

Yes.

Quote:
If grav tanks can lift 6 yards, can they conceal infantry beneath them without harming them?
No, that would result in a few nicely squished infantry men. Wink

Quote:
Are grav tanks affected any differently by effects of the out-of-control table?
No, but as always, apply common sense to the results. I usually treat a Roll Over as a Spin or Skid result, unless it's caused by a hit below the tank, like a massive mine being triggered.
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TAG Wiggy

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Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 10:28 am    Post subject: Re: Miscellaneous Vehicle Questions Reply with quote

Bob_RedBlok wrote:

This question is not necessarily vehicle specific, but it came up when using a vehicle's autocannon. An extra fires an autocannon at a zombie in a bunker. Since the weapon produces a template effect, the extra can aim at the bunker itself, intending to including the zombie beneath the weapon's template. Mechanically, the extra does not suffer the -6 cover penalty to his shooting roll since he can target the bunker to include the zombie in the template's effect rather than targetting the zombie directly, correct? When the extra hits, the cover provided by the bunker instead applies to the zombie's toughness, since the weapon is an area attack, so the unarmored zombie has a toughness of 13, opposed to its usual toughness of 7. Does the autocannon's AP value affect the zombie's enhanced toughness granted by the cover? I personally think the cover adds directly to the zombie's toughness and cannot be reduced by AP.


Yep, it's just like it says in SWEX--Cover modifiers become Armor instead for area effect weapons. It doesn't mention how AP works, but I'd go with you and disallow it--you're not really penetrating the bunker, you're just sending shrapnel through the viewing port.
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SlasherEpoch

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Joined: 17 Sep 2008
Posts: 202

PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2009 6:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Miscellaneous Vehicle Questions Reply with quote

TAG Wiggy wrote:
Bob_RedBlok wrote:

This question is not necessarily vehicle specific, but it came up when using a vehicle's autocannon. An extra fires an autocannon at a zombie in a bunker. Since the weapon produces a template effect, the extra can aim at the bunker itself, intending to including the zombie beneath the weapon's template. Mechanically, the extra does not suffer the -6 cover penalty to his shooting roll since he can target the bunker to include the zombie in the template's effect rather than targetting the zombie directly, correct? When the extra hits, the cover provided by the bunker instead applies to the zombie's toughness, since the weapon is an area attack, so the unarmored zombie has a toughness of 13, opposed to its usual toughness of 7. Does the autocannon's AP value affect the zombie's enhanced toughness granted by the cover? I personally think the cover adds directly to the zombie's toughness and cannot be reduced by AP.


Yep, it's just like it says in SWEX--Cover modifiers become Armor instead for area effect weapons. It doesn't mention how AP works, but I'd go with you and disallow it--you're not really penetrating the bunker, you're just sending shrapnel through the viewing port.


Cleared up on the PEG boards - the AP value should affect the cover.

Citation:

http://peginc.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=218206#218206

(technically that's about MF grenades, but you can extrapolate and answer from there)
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Hellfire6A

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Joined: 10 Jan 2009
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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 6:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK for FFF I'd see the need to count cover as armor for AP purposes, but this doesn't pass the common sense test.

You don't build a fighting position or climb into an APC thinking that shrapnel is going to negate your defense...and guess what it doesn't. Not unless you are riding around with your head out of the armor.

Just because the template for a round covers a figure behind armor should not mean that the figure is effected. Unless the blast penetrates (or somehow negates the armor--airburst against an open topped vehicle) the armor.

I don't think it's perfect but I use the rules that cover adds to toughness, but I don't let AP negate the cover unless the cover can be penetrated completely by the weapon system. A fragment from a grenade is not going to penetrate a concrete bunker so it doesn't get AP. But against some flimsy furniture you betcha. This has the benefit of being FFF and not mind numbingly contrafactual.
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Last edited by Hellfire6A on Fri May 15, 2009 4:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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SlasherEpoch

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 8:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In keeping with what Hellfire said, let me offer the following:

A Savage Worlds Maxim:

Common sense always supplants the rulebooks.
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TAG Wiggy

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2009 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hellfire6A wrote:
OK for FFF I'd see the need to count cover as armor for AP purposes, but this doesn't pass the common sense test.

You don't build a fighting position or climb into an APC thinking that shrapnel is going to negate your defense...and guess what it doesn't. Not unless you are riding around with your head out of the armor.

Just because the template for a round covers a figure behind armor should not mean that the figure is effected. Unless the blast penetrates (or somehow negates the armor--airburst against an open topped vehicle) the armor.

I don't think it's perfect but I use the rules that cover addes to toughness, but I don't let AP negate the cover unless the cover can be penetrated completely by the weapon system. A fragment from a grenade is not going to penetrate a concrete bunker so it doesn't get AP. But against some flimsy furniture you betcha. This has the benefit of being FFF and not mind numbingly contrafactual.


That's my bad, Hellfire. I read the original post as targetting a zombie actually looking through one of the slits, rather than just being any old zombie inside the bunker.
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Bob_RedBlok

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Joined: 29 Oct 2008
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Location: Columbus (Blacklick), OH, USA

PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahh, here's another one I forgot to ask: do Tank vehicle crew suffer multi-action penalties for moving and firing in the same turn per the SWEX vehicle rules, or can they ignore the penalty by virtue of functioning as a crew rather than a single character?
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TAG Wiggy

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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 5:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bob_RedBlok wrote:
Ahh, here's another one I forgot to ask: do Tank vehicle crew suffer multi-action penalties for moving and firing in the same turn per the SWEX vehicle rules, or can they ignore the penalty by virtue of functioning as a crew rather than a single character?


Each crewmember gets his own actions, so typically the driver dribes on his action and the gunner fires on his. All they do is share action cards.
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Hellfire6A

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Location: Spokane, Washington

PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 5:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAG Wiggy wrote:
Bob_RedBlok wrote:
Ahh, here's another one I forgot to ask: do Tank vehicle crew suffer multi-action penalties for moving and firing in the same turn per the SWEX vehicle rules, or can they ignore the penalty by virtue of functioning as a crew rather than a single character?


Each crewmember gets his own actions, so typically the driver dribes on his action and the gunner fires on his. All they do is share action cards.


Just remember that the gunner has a -2 penalty for firing on the move unless he has the Steady Hands edge.

TC: "Driver move out." Driver cranks the handles. Always steering to avoid big holes and always keeping an eye out for good cover.

TC: Tank Commander sees the enemy. Uses override to put main gun on first target. "Gunner, Sabot, Tank! Two Tanks, Left Tank."

Loader: Knees open the ammo door. Grabs sabot round (silver bullet). Releases door and slams round into breach. Closes breach with a clang. Pushes himself to the side out of the path of recoil. "Up!

TC: Checks target in sight and loader is clear. "Fire!"

Gunner: Squeezes trigger. "On the way!" "Lost." (dust cloud)

At this point an observer is watching a tracer streak from the main gun at approximately a mile a second, just like Star Wars.

TC: "Right Tank."

Loader: "Up!"

TC: "Fire!"

Gunner: "On the way!" "Lost."

TC: "Left Tank... (enemy tank brewing up flame from ammo shooting out the top like a blow torch 50 feet high) Target...Right Tank...(turret gone) Target...Cease Fire!"

The whole engagement may have just lasted 8 to 10 seconds.

This tank has a stabilizer, laser range finder and a ballistic computer. Therefore Steady Hands not necessary and each shot hits and kills.
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TAG Wiggy

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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hellfire6A wrote:

Just remember that the gunner has a -2 penalty for firing on the move unless he has the Steady Hands edge.


Or the vehicle has a Stabilizer (-1 penalty) or an Improved Stabilizer (no penalty).
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