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50% wipeout
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Noirfatale

No Cards!


Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 10:40 am    Post subject: 50% wipeout Reply with quote

wow.

last game my character and 2/3 of the team was killed. And the WM had to seriously cut the bad guys numbers and totally stop using bennies at the end.

we did pretty much everything as good as we could, using heavy cover, surprise, superior intelligence, aim and various tactics.

our character were seasoned, we did Fliegerkopf and we got slaughtered.

he removed half the vamps and the ancient at the end.

and we still got wiped out.

ouch.

We were totally taken by surprise by the lethality of the savage system.

and the half penetrating damage on zombies was brutal.

we learned a lot in this scenario: good fighting is a must, good strenght and good vitality.

My character was too social and I invested too much in commanding edges witch was useless in a small scale battle.

oh well, my next character will do better.
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shadd4d

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Joined: 23 Apr 2009
Posts: 136
Location: Charlottesville, VA...I miss Deutschland and Chicago.

PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you have a blow by blow account of what happened? How were your command edges invalidated? How did your guys get whittled down to kindling? Just curious.

Don
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Judge Holden

No Cards!


Joined: 08 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 14, 2009 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I think that's part of the fun. I go in with a character and if he / she survives the first night than I have really accomplished something. Our group sorta plays Necro in between other big long running campaigns so no one gets too attached to their character. Gives you a chance to try out all kinds of builds which is something not everyone enjoys but I find really fun.

Something we started doing was allowing each player to have two characters so that you could be fairly certain you wouldn't be sitting there twiddling your thumbs for half the night.
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Noirfatale

No Cards!


Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 6:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

shadd4d wrote:
Do you have a blow by blow account of what happened? How were your command edges invalidated? How did your guys get whittled down to kindling? Just curious.

Don


well we were just 3 players and one npc. I was senior knight, I had +4 charisma , command, ranks and all the wada to command troops but my edge dont work on fellow wildcard (except for the +1 spirit to recover from shaken). I balanced a character that could fight, investigate and talk to people with some result which meant I was not a combat monster. I had d6 in fighting and shooting so I got slaughtered by the vamps in the cave. Another character was a templar so on foot he was ok but not really great in fighting. Our flechette weaponry was worth crap on the zombies, took us forever to take them out.

all in all, wrong characters, wrong weaponry (we should have brought more missile to hit the guard towers) and wrong set of skills. Build a character that can fight then put some xp to round it up.

the baddies got some incredible rolls , our dice gave us crap.

Nothing went right.

ho well, we need to try that scenario again just to see if we can crack it.
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daran

Five


Joined: 22 Jun 2008
Posts: 779
Location: Westgate-On-Sea, UK

PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Take some sergeants with you too, and consider grenade launchers. Ultimately, the best way to take down the Zombies is with your blade if you're at close quarters, but you're just stemming the tide for a short while. I don't remember if the scenario allows for air support or artie cover but even so, it is worth making the call, you never know. I think the bleakness and the almost futile struggle to turn back the waves of Rephaim are part of the dark side of the setting. It appeals to the unregarded last stand part of my psyche.

The losses in NC2350 are high which is why the heroic and legendary PCs are, well, legendary. Even so, if you have a bad night with the dice, you're going to get minced. TAG Steve as a GM is often on the receiving end of our ridiculous rolls and Wiggy's dice control stare which is going to end up costing him bennies - it is cheating to use dark magic to change the results!

Strength in Battle Senior Knight, we stand between the darkness and the light.
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Noirfatale

No Cards!


Joined: 08 Jul 2009
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 10:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

no Sergent, no air support and we are inserted 50 KM away from the enemy base behind enemy lines so we had to carry everything there on foot.

a guard tower every 12 yards, and a banshee between every tower.

yep brawny is suddenly a appealing edge for my next character...
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Bob_RedBlok

Deuce


Joined: 29 Oct 2008
Posts: 31
Location: Columbus (Blacklick), OH, USA

PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Grenades are candy, and every Rephaim has a sweet tooth.
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Hellfire6A

Three


Joined: 10 Jan 2009
Posts: 270
Location: Spokane, Washington

PostPosted: Thu Jul 16, 2009 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are familiar enough with the system...two PCs per player is good. My kids have played long enough that I allow that. Always make sure you bring cannon fodder...ahem...allies with you. Grenade Launchers are your friend. Don't forget you have them. Use them first and often if possible. Ok that is scenario dependent, but they are good for negating the 1/2 damage for piercing. Flame is also a great tool.

My eldest son has a faithful character with the Burst power. After getting chewed I don't know how many times trying to use his rifle he finally used the Holy Flamethrower and now he is hooked...and the vamps are cooked Razz

Ok that was bad.

As a WM I was having such great luck with the 1/2 piercing damage I'd send my zombies "hey diddle diddle right up the middle" everytime until my kids figured out airstrikes and arty support. Guess what. I had to change tactics too. Sad
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GrimJesta

Deuce


Joined: 14 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 6:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I took a cue from the Shaintar setting book and started allowing players with Command Edges to use them on their WC hombres. I agree with what they say in that book: a player invests their XP in creating a character who's "thing" is being a commanding presence on the battlefield, using their tactical skill and strength of will to lead others to victory - denying them that because the only people they're with are WCs kinda sucks.

The flips side to allowing Command Edges to work on the party is that the person using the Command Edges on them actually has to be the one in charge.

So if, for example, your character had Hold The Line and Inspire and the other players wanted to benefit from them, your character would have to be the leader of the group. Which is fitting for a military-type game like Necropolis.

Shaintar also suggests that one can simulate the tactical leadership abilities of a "leader character" like this: "When Initiative cards are handed out, the players hold them up for the chosen leader to see. The leader can then trade out the cards, giving higher cards to those most in need and lower cards to those in less trouble or who are better served by waiting." Considering that the Shaintar Plot Point campaign also assumes that the characters are part of a military organization complete with ranks and all, I feel that this is an acceptable route to go with Necropolis. The players want the Leadership Edges to work on them, then they submit to a chain of command like this.

One thing though - I don't allow PCs to talk while the "leader" is changing out the cards except for a sentence or two while the cards are being dealt (and if the leader can actually hear them). He's the one in charge. He doesn't have telepathy. I do allow people to plead their case or talk a moment of tactics if the "leader" makes a successful Knowledge (Tactics) roll. But you can ignore this and just do the simplified version presented in Shaintar.

A character with Leadership Edges is suddenly very useful on the battlefield, and much like real life, worth keeping alive by all means.

Just my two cents, since it seemed that the OP felt that characters with Leadership Edges and social skills got the shaft in a combat-oriented setting like Necropolis. It also would help if the WM kept in mind that as the dude running the game he should ensure that all the characters are useful at some point in a session...

-=Grim=-
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Cable Hogue

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Joined: 20 Jun 2008
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Location: Ulm, Germany

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 7:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shaintar is all about a small group of (regarding the setting rules: SUPER-)heroes combatting together against equally strong opposition. The scope of Shaintar is "big damn heroics". Far away must any "both feet on the ground" attitude be, if you are going to Shaintar.

In Necropolis on the other hand a commanding PC nearly ALWAYS has quite a bunch of Extras or more under his command - without them he would not be able to achieve his military objective of the mission. - Necropolis characters can be heroic in their own right, but they do not need the "superheroic boosts, bells and whistles" Shaintar puts as "icing" on a to already (much too) powerful PCs leading "cake".

Necropolis has a near-futuristic tech level and a quite contemporary outlook on society. It is not High Fantasy, not superheroes battling undead minions into charcoal and dusted bones.

Adding Command Edge benefits to Extras makes them last longer and become more useful, BECAUSE of the commanding PC's presence and leadership skill.

Adding Command Edge benefits to Wildcards is a "gift" of at least SEVERAL Level-Ups worth - for nothing!

Bonusses to damage, Toughness, recover from Shaken, Guts rolls, etc. are all worth an individual character's Level-Ups. The Shaintar setting rule grants those effects, and effectively those "Level-Ups" for free. Where's the challenge? And where's the individual development of my character?

Applying them to Wildcards results in a VERY over the top "military comedy"-style setting, that Necropolis is most probably not intended to be. - Not a Scooby Gang having a little bruise with some naughty undead bad guys.

Granting Wildcards inside the command range the benefits of the Command Edges makes them really silly competent as a GROUP. Everyone gets his "boost". This devalues other, individual Edges and even Skill improvement, and it leads to a cowardly fighting style of everyone cluttering around the "protector", the commanding PC.

Where is in that the individualism, the free will, that marks every Wildcard as special, as NON-Extra?



I consider the Shaintar setting rules (not only that one quoted above) as one of the most silly setting rules in Savage settings today. They are bound to break the workable numerical range of SW stats quite early in a campaign, and thereafter its SUPER-Heroes all the way.

I do not recommend using any of those setting rules in a "both feet on the ground" (and often "balls to the walls") setting like Necropolis.
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TAG Wiggy

Triple Ace


Joined: 11 Jun 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought I'd share a few thoughts on the subject.

Fliegerkopf is one mission and yes, it's a tough one. It requires a lot of tactical thought and some luck to succeed with low losses. Much of the time the heroes have some sort of help, whether that's Sergeants, other Knights, vehicles, or air and artillery support. Leadership Edges are actually a lot more useful in Necropolis than most other settings.

Necropolis 2350 is about heroes, but not superheroes. It's a grim world where death is always one step behind you. More characters will die than in most other settings.

Necropolis does allow you to use Leadership Edges on Wild Cards, once you reach Legendary -- see the Leader of Men Edge in the Update. There's also the Tactician Edge, which allows the commander to switch action cards at key moments in a battle

All that said, Necropolis 2350 is your game -- whatever works for you is the correct way to play the game.
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GrimJesta

Deuce


Joined: 14 Jul 2009
Posts: 59

PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Cable Hogue wrote:
Necropolis characters can be heroic in their own right, but they do not need the "superheroic boosts, bells and whistles".
Necropolis has a near-futuristic tech level and a quite contemporary outlook on society.


A leadership character has "super-heroic boosts, bells, and whistles"? Um, how? There's nothing super-heroic about them. So Hold The Line, a whopping +1 to Toughness and a Seasoned-Rank Edge, is super-heroic, yet Berserk, which grants +2 to Fighting and Strength rolls and +2 to Toughness and Novice-Rank, isn't? A character with Tank Hunter, nailing tanks with +4 AP at Novice-Level isn't super-heroic, yet the same Rank leader-style character granting those around him a +1 to recover from being Shaken is super-heroic? Elan isn't a "bell and whistle", yet Fanaticism with it's whooping +1 to Guts rolls is?

Cable Hogue wrote:
Adding Command Edge benefits to Extras makes them last longer and become more useful, BECAUSE of the commanding PC's presence and leadership skill.


Yes, and there will be plenty of times that character will not have droves of Allies with them. Unless every single session is large-scale confrontations, which gets old fast. And then, while the PCs are on their own, with perhaps one or two Allies, the Leadership character is suddenly regretting his Edge choices while he watches characters with Flamethrowers toss down two cone templates and the guy with the swords Sweeps through five Zombies.

But let's pretend the group is always accompanied by 20 Sergeants. So what if the leader affects the other players. The Sergeants are still affected just as you stated. Nothing's changed except that the WCs are a little better around their leader (as they should be), and the leader isn't useless if there's no Sergeants around.

I mean, look at the actual Plot Point campaign in the book...

[SPOILER]

...the last two Plot Points it is JUST the unit of WCs. That's really great for a character who has focuses so much time and effort in building a social/leadership character. Hell, the one before that you're lucky to have just over half-a Lance accompanying you considering the bloodbath before it.

[/SPOILER]

Cable Hogue wrote:
Adding Command Edge benefits to Wildcards is a "gift" of at least SEVERAL Level-Ups worth - for nothing!


So? Fast. Furious. Fun. Let them feel like a crack squad with a solid leader. I don't see how a commander actually benefiting his men with some low bonuses to Guts rolls or to recover from being Shaken is campaign-alteringly (ooooh, new word!) terrible.

It's free. So what?

Cable Hogue wrote:
Where's the challenge? And where's the individual development of my character?


If the guy with Command giving you +1 to recover from being Shaken hinders the development of your character... well.... never mind. That speaks for itself.

Cable Hogue wrote:
Applying them to Wildcards results in a VERY over the top "military comedy"-style setting, that Necropolis is most probably not intended to be. - Not a Scooby Gang having a little bruise with some naughty undead bad guys.


So, for example, WC soldiers under Patton's command participated in "military comedy"? Any WCs that served under Rommel were dancing through a slapstick campaign through North Africa? Alexander the Great's WC soldiers guffawed across the Mediterranean? I didn't know that Fanaticism, with it's +1 to Guts rolls, caused that much havoc.

Cable Hogue wrote:
This devalues other, individual Edges and even Skill improvement, and it leads to a cowardly fighting style of everyone cluttering around the "protector", the commanding PC.


Considering that they're a squad this is a bad thing? A squad commander without Command Presence has a command range of 30'/10 yards/5" radius; that's a huddled squad? A tactical squad all within 60' of one-another with the leader in the middle is a "cowardly fighting style"? I didn't know that most real-world soldiers fought like cowards.

Command Presence (something a serious Leader should always consider taking) bumps that up to 120' with the leader in the middle. Not quite a huddle by any means.

And how exactly does this "devalue" any Edges other people have? An assault soldier literally with the Assault Edge suddenly loses that Edge is he's within 30' of a guy with Inspire, granting him a +2 to recover from being Shaken? A tank driver with Defensive Driver loses his abilities is the guy in the back of his tank gives him +1 Toughness?

A leader granting +1 to Guts rolls cheapens a character's Guts roll at d8 by making it a d8+1?

Where are you seeing any abilities a Leader would have that, were they to apply to Wild Cards, would negate or cheapen another characters' Edges? Examples please.

In addition, they're quite a sad group of "the best" if they can't move out of the command radius on their own to perform specific missions outside of the core group.


Cable Hogue wrote:
Where is in that the individualism, the free will, that marks every Wildcard as special, as NON-Extra?


Wow. That's some serious melodrama right there. So you're saying that the above mentioned +1 to Guts, or maybe a +2 to recover from being Shaken, or a +1 to Toughness being granted by a guy within 30' or 60' (depending on Command Presence) removes INDIVIDUALISM!?! FREE WILL!?! Wild Cards are no longer... special? Despite having the Wild Die, Wound levels, their own Edges and Skills, and thinking players behind them? So... uh... without Command Edges helping them out, how exactly do characters have more free will or individualism?


Cable Hogue wrote:
I do not recommend using any of those setting rules in a "both feet on the ground" (and often "balls to the walls") setting like Necropolis.


Seriously, five more people (or however many players are in your group) in the invasion and reclamation of New Budapest getting +1 Toughness amidst the other 150 soldiers around them totally screws up the "balls to the wall" feel of a few hundred zombies shooting at you amidst an artillery barrage.

Rolling Eyes

What Edges, when applied to WC characters from their WC commander, ruin "free will", "individualism", and cause a break out in some sort of comedic slapstick.

Please cite examples.

-=Grim=-
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Last edited by GrimJesta on Sun Jul 26, 2009 8:10 pm; edited 1 time in total
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GrimJesta

Deuce


Joined: 14 Jul 2009
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TAG Wiggy wrote:

All that said, Necropolis 2350 is your game -- whatever works for you is the correct way to play the game.


All too true.

-=Grim=-
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Hellfire6A

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 3:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My two cents...

20 years military experience. I think that the Leadership edges should effect your WCs. A good leader can lead other leaders as well.

Wiggy said it. It's your game do what you want with it. But, the great thing about SW is you don't have to be tied to anyone style or set of dictates.
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daran

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 9:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just wanted to second Six's comments here. A good company commander will inspire and empower his/her platoon leaders in much the same way as a batallion commander will lead his/her company commanders and so on up the food chain. The first example is the most common and likely though, and it works.

The only real question the OP has to answer here is how do you want it to work? Your game pal, Savage Worlds and the great setting are your tools not restraints, so do whatever is FFF.
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