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atomic bombs against the rephaim?
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Enpeze

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 2:36 pm    Post subject: atomic bombs against the rephaim? Reply with quote

I just bought the german version and after some browsing I detected there is no mentioning of atomic weapons. Is this correct? The church or the corps do not use a-weapons against the undead?

Another thing I was wondering was the non-mentioning of spaceship technology. Has this tech been forgotten by 24th century humans?
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shadd4d

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Regarding Nuclear weapons, look at the timeline. As of 2316, nuclear weapons were banned. Additionally, as they are undead, it's unknown what a nuke would actually do the Rephaim. If you look at the update, there's planning on a possible superweapon to try and attack the undead, but even it's a little dicey and a sort of political football. As to why they don't use nukes, my own opinion is that the Church and the Corps want to reconquer the land. They don't want to nuke any of the Dead Zones for that reason.

I'd recommend the 2350-2355 Update, as it does address space technology and lack thereof. It is still in living memory, but other resources are required or take precedence. The Church is more interested in trying to maintain itself against the Undead and the Corps rather than exploring the heavens. Additionally, FTL is partially what led to the current state of affairs (think Event Horizon).

Don
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TAG Wiggy

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 3:42 pm    Post subject: Re: atomic bombs against the rephaim? Reply with quote

Enpeze wrote:
I just bought the german version and after some browsing I detected there is no mentioning of atomic weapons. Is this correct? The church or the corps do not use a-weapons against the undead?


Should be a note in the history timeline about banning the bomb.

Quote:
Another thing I was wondering was the non-mentioning of spaceship technology. Has this tech been forgotten by 24th century humans?


Yep. Starships require a lot of specialist tools and workers -- exactly the sorts not present on Salus before the last great war.
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Enpeze

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ah ok. thanks for clarification.

Well I find this a little bit odd, even if the weapon is banned. I mean its the survival of mankind. A question of yes or no. I think the most logical mankind would do in such a case is to redraw every weapon ban and use it against their enemy. Even if the church does not, the corps would surely not have such pseudo-moralic issues. If not, they are decadent, and deserve to (un-) die.

Wink

More logical would be, if the a-bomb is not really effective against the undead threat (because it opens additional gate to their realm and enable further invasions...)

Another issue is IMO that I think that in the face of extinction there would be a massive military alliance between corporate states and church.

Humans do this normally even if they have ideological differences. See WW2 economically and military coorporation between Russians and Western powers
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shadd4d

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Enpeze wrote:
Another issue is IMO that I think that in the face of extinction there would be a massive military alliance between corporate states and church.

Humans do this normally even if they have ideological differences. See WW2 economically and military coorporation between Russians and Western powers


You have a partial point; on the one hand, humanity is quasi-united. The corporations aren't open allies of the Undead and there is some cooperation in terms of trade and agreements between the Corps and the Church, like the no nuclear weapons or various services and tech both trade to each other. That said, there is still a fundamental competition between them. The Church isn't only a government with a military and a creed but it's also big business with lots of consumers. The corp states have a lot of people who need faith. In a real sense, both groups want each other's proverbial cake. I guess what I'm saying is that the threat of the Undead hasn't 1) quite fulfilled the form a coalition to stop a world supremacy drive inherent in WWII or WWI, 2) the undead is mostly a target of the church and its armies as opposed to the corporations, 3) this also doesn't address any backdoor deals between various corporations and the undead.

Additionally, similar to those who saw pre-WWII Germany as a bulwark against Communism, both the church and the corps may be playing each other off against the undead, so as to be the final winner. Basically, each side may be thinking of sacrificing the other to then only face a weakened foe, much as perhaps Britain or France would face the "winner" in a contest between fascist Germany and Soviet Russia.

Now, while drawing on those as parallels, I in no manner wish to state a political or historical opinion, but merely use these as parallels for the Necropolis setting.

Don
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Enpeze

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 5:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="shadd4d"]
Enpeze wrote:


You have a partial point; on the one hand, humanity is quasi-united. The corporations aren't open allies of the Undead and there is some cooperation in terms of trade and agreements between the Corps and the Church, like the no nuclear weapons or various services and tech both trade to each other. That said, there is still a fundamental competition between them. The Church isn't only a government with a military and a creed but it's also big business with lots of consumers. The corp states have a lot of people who need faith. In a real sense, both groups want each other's proverbial cake. I guess what I'm saying is that the threat of the Undead hasn't 1) quite fulfilled the form a coalition to stop a world supremacy drive inherent in WWII or WWI, 2) the undead is mostly a target of the church and its armies as opposed to the corporations, 3) this also doesn't address any backdoor deals between various corporations and the undead.

Additionally, similar to those who saw pre-WWII Germany as a bulwark against Communism, both the church and the corps may be playing each other off against the undead, so as to be the final winner. Basically, each side may be thinking of sacrificing the other to then only face a weakened foe, much as perhaps Britain or France would face the "winner" in a contest between fascist Germany and Soviet Russia.

Don


Possibly you are over-interpreting the whole thing. I am no specialist in Necropolis but I didnt read such complex triangular power-relations between the 3 fractions on the planet anywhere in the rulebook.

I just read that there are undead on one side which threaten to extinct the whole humanity in the galaxy and 2 human nations (the last in the universe) on the other side which obviously didnt realize this danger in its entirety, because they still refuse to use a-bombs against the undead and fight sometimes even against each other. Instead they use armored humans with swords and some conventional tanks. Well....

I think its an exiting setting, but it has not much internal logic.
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philth

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 7:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

my interpretation is that humanity no longer possesses any remaining a-bombs, nor do they posses the technology to recreate one, just as they no longer posses the capability to create spaceships anymore.

As far as why the corp and church don't join forces, well most importantly it's more fun to have humanity divided in the face of ultimate destruction. It is not unlike a parable; within is a lesson to be learned about (non)cooperation and hubris. Can Mankind put aside there differences and wake up before it's to late? God I hope not Wink
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derfinsterling

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 10:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why bring nuclear bombs to a planet you're about to colonize?

And it's not like you could just build a nuke in your garage either... Wink
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SlasherEpoch

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

First off, the Rephaim occupy areas that humans would like to colonize. Second, while large numbers of Rephaim may be affected by the initial blast, the radiation would not do anything to destroy their massive numbers over time; indeed, it's possible the Rephaim might harness it somehow. Thirdly, areas under the cover of Darkness Generators aren't reliably targetable from air. Finally, I do not know for a fact that Salus supports materials capable of manufacturing such a device.

Helpful?
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philth

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

this does have the makings of a good adventure/plot point/dark secret - The Return of the Atom Bomb or Bring Back the Bomb.... a crashed ship could be discovered that contains the plans, who gets it first. Then a quest to secure the proper materials and scientists, protect the secret....and then have it all blow up in our faces for a grand finale Smile
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Enpeze

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SlasherEpoch wrote:
First off, the Rephaim occupy areas that humans would like to colonize.


I dont think that preserving "colonization areas" are VERY important if you are at the brink of extinction. Humans did use (and will probably use in the future) a-bombs for much lesser events than the apocalypse (like simple world wars)

SlasherEpoch wrote:

Second, while large numbers of Rephaim may be affected by the initial blast, the radiation would not do anything to destroy their massive numbers over time;


okay. I always thought that swords are way better than abombs for killing the masses. Smile

SlasherEpoch wrote:

indeed, it's possible the Rephaim might harness it somehow. Thirdly, areas under the cover of Darkness Generators aren't reliably targetable from air.


Yep. This could probably be a reason.

SlasherEpoch wrote:

Finally, I do not know for a fact that Salus supports materials capable of manufacturing such a device.


this is not really plausible. Salus has super tech (like gravtanks) and thus should be able to produce a-weapons without any problem.

Well, I dont plan to use the setting for a game but if I ever use it I will introduce a logical reason why desperate humankind dont use a-bombs. A reason like that the a-bomb opens another gate to the undead realm and thus do more harm than use or something similar.

Of course I know that the real reason that humans dont use devastating weapons against the undead is that that would spoil the tactical aspect of the setting. Its the same reason why protagonists of horror films always split up and go into different directions...
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TAG Wiggy

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 5:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:

this is not really plausible. Salus has super tech (like gravtanks) and thus should be able to produce a-weapons without any problem.


Necropolis 2350 is written on two levels.

First, there's the obvious -- the words on the page in black and white. More than enough information to play the game and have fun slaying undead with swords and explosives.

Second, there's a deeper level for those who want to discover it. Rather than being presented in black and white, this requires the reader to actually ask himself questions about the setting. The answers make the game much darker and raise moral issues that many gamers might not want to introduce into their campaign (which is why they're not spelled out).

Why were nuclear bombs banned shortly after the TRC gained power?
Why were they banned a few years after the Rephaim were discovered, when surely they presented a quick and effective way to end the problem?

You should also reread the book more carefully. Nuclear weapons are actually mentioned several times. Smile
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the_redstar_swl

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 04, 2009 11:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's cheaper to build a large fuel-air-explosive bomb and drop it from a cargo aircraft anyways.
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SlasherEpoch

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 4:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's possible the TRC banned atomic weapons in order to keep dissidents from using them against the Church. If a Rephaim puppet ever managed to blow up the Pope, for instance, it would spell the end of humanity.
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steelbrok

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Or maybe humanity's salvation if you read between the lines of Wiggy's post above.....
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